interviews
Marc Brickman 12/5/95
phonecall on the Enigma
by Sean Heisler (full version)
februari 1995
the interview
MB=Marc Brickman
SM=Sean HeislerSH: Marc, this is Sean Heisler.
MB: Hey Sean, how are you.
SH: Sorry to bother you at home, ******* gave me your number hope I am not intruding too much.
MB: No, that's alright.
SH: Do you have a few minutes?
MB: Yeah.
SH: Did you ever speak with Nick?
MB: Yes, yes I did, but it was real brief- his kid was screaming in the background and it was dinner time. Today he had left for Barbados, so we said we would see each other sometime after the first of the year.
SH: So you really didn't get to talk about it (the enigma and our conversation)?
MB: No, we talked about some other stuff. Um, it was kind of a very rushed conversation, he was giving his kid a bath and stuff, so.
SH: I see. Hey, I heard from ****** that you had got into a car accident?
MB: Yeah, I almost got killed.
SH: No shit. You are alright though huh?
MB: Yeah, just...just a little freaked out by it, how close I came, or why I didn't get hurt. Why I don't even have a cut, why the fu**ing window in the truck exploded- there was glass everywhere. (laughing) It was embedded, glass was embedded in my notebook, a hardbound notebook, I don't understand why it is not on my face. I just don't get it. (laughter).
SH: I heard that Fisher is there visiting you?
MB: He comes here tomorrow. Yeah he is coming tomorrow.
SH: I see.
MB: We are working on something together.
SH: Have to do with Floyd?
MB: No. No. I don't think they are going to go out, I don't know, I heard rumors of '97...but, I probably won't do it. Well I hope I don't have to, I might have to for the money.
SH: Kind of angry?
MB: No I'm not angry, little bored. More bored, not angry.
SH: I informed some other people about everything, I posted something to the newsgroup, um, I guess there is about 5 or 6 of us that are still 'big-time' following this and I have a few more questions I could ask you maybe?
MB: Yeah, sure.
SH: When you proposed doing something on the internet, just basically the idea you had of going out from different shows, was it the idea of a puzzle?
MB: I had the idea of a puzzle.
SH: When was that again?
MB: That was in ah...what is was was my idea of the puzzle was, was that each evening we'd send a frame, or we would take ah...we would send one frame out. Or we would take a piece of a frame, of a picture of a show- and send it out (to internet), and basically over the tour they would have to assemble the pieces and figure out what it was, and there would be prizes given. The puzzle idea was my concept, that is why I am probably still pissed off.
SH: Was this concept proposed during or after the recording of The Division Bell?
MB: It was um, it was um, in February of '94, no January of '94. When I proposed it.
SH: So they were still recording at the time?
MB: They were in the final mixes.
SH: Oh, were they.
MB: They didn't even know what the internet was.
SH: Then you got them started within a couple months, correct?
MB: Yeah, yeah.
SH: So, do you know then in any fashion or in any way did they designed any sort of a puzzle at all?
MB: Um, for what? For The Division Bell?
SH: Yes.
MB: While they were doing the album?
SH: Yes. During or after.
MB: I doubt it.
SH: I mean do you think they _ever_ did?
MB: No...no...no.
SH: So you think that all the posts we got (from Publius) were meaningless?
MB: Um, I think what happend was, they heard my idea. Then there was this guy, who approached them also...
SH: The D.C guy (the encryptionist)?
MB: The guy from D.C. appraoched them...Steve O'Rourke is a real asshole, what he does is he likes to take credit for all ideas and everything. So he heard my idea, and you know with my idea, he would just go 'oh no, no forget that'. Then he'll turn around and if someone else approaches him, he'll say 'yeah I had the same idea, as a matter of fact'- and you know I think then this guy he worked for the CIA, had more, or in his mind more ah...see he was kind of a groupie, so he was more ah...more fashionable. So then he probably listened to what this guy had to say, took some of that stuff then went to the band, and...like I said last time, Dave probably went 'do whatever you want to do, I don't give a f**k'. Then Nick probably went 'oh, this could be very interesting, what we could do is take all this old stuff and come up with a...da da da da.' So, you know I am sure it is Nick.
SH: Yeah, but you are thinking then, or are pretty sure that they didn't devise any sort of game at all?
MB: A game?
SH: Yes. A sort of a puzzle, that makes any sense at all.
MB: I think that they they just threw out a lot of trivia, out there, cause I think that Nick did something else with trivia and a game, I forget what it was for now...it was ah...it was in the booklet actually, it was in the booklet for the show. The program. It has to with some program for the show, there was like a trivia quiz. I remember seeing Nick writing that one evening.
SH: Really.
MB: Yeah, you know, when he would be asking 50 questions or something. And if people got the questions right, they would win something. So I mean that is the _only_ time I ever saw somebody put a conscious effort toward a puzzle- I mean you have to understand that when you are on the road, you ah... you don't do a whole lot, you arrive in a city, you are in a private jet, you get picked up you go to the hotel- get there about 2 or 3 o'clock, you either got a gig that night and you get ready for the sound check or you got the day off and you kind of hang around the hotel for a couple hours and go out for dinner, get drunk, go to sleep and wake up in the morning, go shopping and go to the gig. (laughter) You know you um, that is basically how you live and all you do. Very little can get done out there, because you really don't ah...I mean sure you'll communicate, do a little bit of computer stuff. I mean Nick was running a business on the road anyway. And Dave had his wife and kids out there, so I mean it was like you know...they are not going to be sitting there making a fu**ing puzzle up.(laughter) You know Rick's not involved, Steve is just busy doing the managers thing.
SH: Right.
MB: So I mean, you really don't have the time. I shot the music video and I could barely get their attention. You know, and there I was on the road. It was tough to even get a half hour meeting and talk about the video. So really...I just don't see how they, I just don't see how they consciously...I just think that Nick probably came up with something. They were probably just playing with the people to see what the responses were, and probably fed off that for a while. But it pretty much died right? I mean you haven't heard anything?
SH: Right, right. Nothing.
MB: See, I think they just pretty much lost interest.
SH: So you are pretty sure it is over with then?
MB: I just think, you know, it's like, they were on the road and it gave Nick something to do. It was interesting you know, maybe after the road a little bit. But you know a it's now a year after they have been off the road. How long has it been since it died?
SH: Well they posted last January and August, that is it.
MB: That's it January and August? Ok. Ok. That is vacation time, that is the holiday. August is traditionally- Europeon's traditionally take the month of August off. So um, and January makes sense in that he ah...he had left (Nick), that is when he first got back home from the holiday in Barbados, yes, over in Barbados last Christmas, um...you know we had finished the tour in November and they all went away anyway, or soon after. They had to go away because they were tax exiles, they couldn't come back into the country until January. They all took off except for Dave. Nick and Steve and Rick, took off. The day after the concert, from London. They weren't allowed back in England until January. (laughter) Because of taxes, so I mean, January makes sense because they just got back in to the country and he thought 'I'll just check out the net'. And then he got back into his normal life in London. Then when he probably had anytime to think about that would have been...you know, the summer holiday.
SH: Yeah, I see.
MB: I mean I think, they were just f**king with you. Not f**king with you I mean, um, they really just weren't doing anything. I am sure it is just Nick.
SH: So you directed the Take It Back video correct? And was there any sort of inclusion of this stuff into the video, that maybe you were told to do by anybody, maybe O'Rourke?
MB: (laughing) No. No.
SH: Nothing at all?
MB: What are you kidding me? No. It doesn't work that way...see, bands don't sit around and looking things, or putting cryptic things into...I don't even think the Beatles did it, I think that was the fans going crazy. I mean really, and I think the bands were amazed at how the fans would draw these inferences.
SH: See, we were all scared at first that maybe someone was going off like that, you know- 'Pink Floyd and concept', looking into the concept, but we were having someone come to the net and telling us all this shit, and we started believing it when the signals were produced...
MB: Yeah but, I was told to do those signals. You know, I mean I was really pissed off the second time. The first time they did it, I was actually my wife had just had brain surgery and I left the tour, and I had just came back to New York. And I actually didn't go to the show that night, I went to my room I wasn't really up for doing the show. But I remember having to call someone up and tell them how to program that, I called them and told them how to put that in. And I had it appear, and I am the one that picked the position in the show. I am the one who picked the time of when it would come on too. It was um, I think during Another Brick in the Wall, where we would usually put in HEY TEACHER. I designed the front of the stage, where the lights allow you to put messages in. It was originally my idea, they wanted me to project it with the projectors, and I said I would just type it in on the front panels.
SH: It was noticed that during Keep Talking that certain lights may have been grouped in three, or a section of 3 lights were noticeably flashing brighter- was there any concept in that?
MB: No Um, well it was really simple. The symbols in the front, matched the projections that go across the front- was just an idea of graphic that's all. It was just a graphic design, that talked about hieroglyphs.
SH: Communication.
MB: Communication, that's what the song was about.
SH: Right.
MB: Really that is all it is, it is really straight forward.
SH: When you edited the Pulse homevideo...
MB: The which?
SH: The Pulse home video
MB: I didn't edit that.
SH: You didn't? I thought you did? It has been suggested that when the ENIGMA projection is shown, that in the video it looks like it has been 'messed' with, like they messed with it, or enhanced it on the video.
MB: No. No. At the beginning of Another Brick in the Wall, there is a clear sheet of gel where we scroll- you know usually one plus one equals two and that shit, it's like school. Then suddenly you see the hand come in, and cross it all out- like the teacher going 'it's all wrong it's all wrong'- that's what that's all about. So we were told again that we had to write Enigma, and I told them 'f**k you' and it was if you want to get paid you better do it. (laughter).
SH: Some people were then analyzing the hell out of some of those formulas, that were written around ENIGMA. The one plus one equals two, etc. People were analyzing ...
MB: Sean, Sean, (laughing) you want me to tell you the truth. I have a girl that works for me, she's french, she doesn't even speak english. Every night she would change the slides, some nights we would say happy birthday to people, when my parents were in the audience they would write something, they wrote something for me one time referencing my hometown Philadelphia. I mean it would change every night. Like when Dave's kids showed up, we would give them a piece of gel and they would write anything they would want. Didn't matter. We put all the crews names up their one night. It really, whoever wanted to put something up there, and the band never knew what was going on. It was Steve that told me to put ENIGMA up there. And Steve who told me to put PUBLIUS ENIGMA up in the meadowlands. So that is why I am saying, it is between the guy in Washington and Nick and Steve, that is where it all came from.
SH: I see.
MB: You know, and they all lost interest. They were probably very blown away in how everyone analyzed it, they probably get a kick out of how the fans just do this kind of stuff. Sorry (laughter)
SH: Yeah. I was going to tell you too, that as I have told the other people about this, and you know typing out this stuff, I totally left out all your personal comments (when publicly shown- you guys reading this again are reading the unedited version) of people, you know, I respect that- you know what I mean.
MB: Yeah that's fine. I mean I am sure they are not even going to view it. I mean I um, I was the one who turned...there was a guy named John...can't remeber his name, he was head of UCLA- the computer department there or something. I think he now has something to do with 'Virtual Vegas' or something. Anyway, he was the guy who actually turned me on the internet, he's the guy, what he did was he printed out the newsgroup back in January of '94. Printed out of like two weeks worth of newsgroup stuff, right. That I passed on to Nick, like at the end of January beginning of February. And that is how they all got turned onto it.
SH: No shit. So you don't think that at that time when they were doing final mixing, that possibly...
MB: They didn't hardly know what the internet was.
SH: So you don't don't think they threw things into final mixes or anything?
MB: Like what?
SH: Well I don't know. Like maybe the bridge parts in songs, like Poles Apart or High Hopes.
MB: What do you mean 'bridge parts'?
SH: Where there is that little section where ah, in Poles apart where you hear that 'circus music'...
MB: Like a merry-go-round?
SH: Yeah.
MB: That was, that had nothing to do with this. That was just a sound they came up with. I mean the merry-go-round (spherical forms spinning causing poles), you know 'Poles Apart'. I mean I don't know really, I mean I have been to the boat (private recording studio) I have been in the studio with them. Usually, they are never all together, um, Polly was really in charge this time so a lot of people stayed away. The final mix was done by um, you know what's his name um...I can't think of it. Anyway, the mix was done, and I think that is something Rick came up with. Those sounds. You know I actually don't think they would sit there and go....you know...it is much simpler than that. It has to be. If you sit around and think about what you are going to do, it doesn't really happen I mean it has to kind of flow.
SH: So what is Fisher coming to see you for?
MB: Oh, I have this project in Saudi Arabia. I mean I am trying to get him involved in it. We haven't seen each other for two months so...he's out here visiting Mickey Mouse.
SH: We exchanged mail the other day, I wrote him a while ago and asked him if I could let his conversation with me out into the public, and he finally wrote me back and he was criticisng me for using the 'english language too loosely' and I wasn't quoting him right. Because in a subtle way he admitted to me in our conversation that there was something going on, but apparently he didn't agree that he said that.
MB: He admitted something was going on? Like What?
SH: Yeah I said in the conversation- see he wouldn't flat out admit anything, so I asked if he had in any way contributed to the enigma in any way, and he said yes.
MB: Aw, he was just fu**ing with you. Just fu**ing with you. (laughter). It is unbelievable, I mean the English are so unbelievable. He said yes?
SH: He said yes, he really did.
MB: Well you know, there are huge egos out there in the world. He is very nice though. Really, really, I would be blown away- you know if you really look at it, with the postings in only January and August, and everything, I would be very very very shocked if wasn't the way I am viewing it. Cause I am pretty much, you know I was pretty much in what was going on. I was really close to Dave on the tour, you know, I was really close to Dave and Polly because I was the only one Polly pretty much liked. So we when to dinner a lot, and hung out. Yeah and I would be out with Nick all the time, you know I would hang out with both of them all the time have dinners with them. So, ah, I was pretty close to them. And I would think, and I did ask them about internet stuff from time to time, and I remember Dave was like 'aw fu** off I don't need to hear none of that'. You know he some kind of, great, um, great line for it.
SH: So if there was some kind of puzzle, that they had made up, you would have probably known about it anyway?
MB: Well I would always ask Steve, and Steve would say 'oh, well I will let you in aw f**k off' you know and the thing is, if there really was something going on, he probably would have but what he was doing to me was just fu**ing with me too. Like there really wasn't 'an end to the game'. And he just really didn't know, know where it went. They were just seeing where it went. And if it went some place then maybe they would have made an end to it. It just got really boring.
SH: Hey that Mark Brown guy, he saves a lot of messages from the internet and he was able to find the messages you and him exchanged. I read them all, it is interesting.
MB: He did. What did I say?
SH: You were trying to explain to him that you had put out the signals, but you didn't really want to reveal your name, but you were signing it roygbiv.
MB: But finally I did say my name in one of them though.
SH: Really?
MB: Yeah there is one where I did sign my name, yeah. But none got it, and it pissed me off, boy I thought these guys are Pink Floyd fans don't they ever think of the lighting guy? I'm like you guys are idiots or what. (laughter)
SH: And you explained how your name was an anagram.
MB: Yeah.
SH: That is pretty cool.
MB: So that was a puzzle, see. (laughter) Did you see the one where he got pissed off at me, what did he say to me? It was really arrogant.
SH: Well, it seemed like maybe it had something to do with asking a child for something or another rather than you, I don't know. Just a mix-up I think really.
MB: 'Flaming', I was 'flaming'. I was saying 'can't you guys wake up'.
SH: I don't think they had a clue it was you, I had none. Maybe, I don't know. Somehow along the way your name was brought up. Anyway, I won't keep you. Lastly, everyone in the newsgroup is leery of what you have said, in that many are not quite certain as to whether you really know what actually happend. I mean, some question if you really know or not if there was a puzzle or _enigma_ actually designed. Do you think that there was something they actually put together?
MB: No. No, Sean, no. I really don't. I mean I would have known something... it- Sean, they were just f**king with you guys. See...the prize, the game, a puzzle it all came from me, back in, like I said in January or February of '94. And that was to do it live- but then at that moment it was to you know, come back stage, or meet the band, you know- tie it in with the tour. See, that is where the original concept came up, but see they will never admit that, they will say that it was all their idea. Anyway, I am going to run...
SH: Ok, I will get a hold of you sometime.
MB: Ok. Take care Sean.
SH: Ok. Marc thanks a lot, talk to you later.
Note the timeline. This conversation clears up any comments made earlier of things being organized in '93. Most of this took place in early '94.
Still possibility of an encrypted game he knows nothing about, but how much of a possibility is it that he didn't know a damn thing about it. He is really a sincere guy, and understands our frustration. Maybe it will take Steve or Nick to put our minds to rest, but in the meantime don't fool yourself into choosing a particular road. Moreover, there is just as much possibility that Brickman is correct in that there was or is no enigma, as that he may not have known of some designed puzzle and there really is one. I am willing to hold out for the final word, in that I agree hearing it from Steve or Nick would settle my mind, but in the meantime- my weight is leaning behind the side and credible intuition of Mr. Brickman.
and remember:
"You'll reap the harvest you have sown"
march 1995
